What's the Israeli government's new "plan" for peace? Reading the New York Times doesn't help your understand where they stand. Earlier this week, the Times' Ethan Bronner (5/17/11) praised a speech by Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu for exhibiting "greater flexibility on territory." Bronner wrote that he showed "more willingness to yield territory than he had before, strongly implying that he would give up the vast majority of the West Bank." As Matthew Taylor wrote at Mondoweiss (5/17/11), there was little actual evidence that there was much going on here–just some "implying" and "suggesting."
A Times article today (5/19/11) from Bronner and Helene Cooper makes things more confusing. The piece describes Netanyahu as wanting three things: Israeli military along the Jordan River, control of Jerusalem and holding on to West Bank settlements. His other "condition" is that the Palestinian government cannot include Hamas; the Times notes that "Netanyahu knows that the Palestinians will find this condition unacceptable…. But since the United States labels Hamas as terrorists, Mr. Netanyahu is betting that he will appear more forthcoming than ever."
Well, he's already appeared that way in the pages of the New York Times. Though the piece today also says this:
Whether Mr. Netanyahu's offer, first outlined in a speech to Parliament on Monday, is a genuine attempt to negotiate peace with the Palestinians, or to make it appear that the Palestinians are the ones blocking progress, is not yet clear.
This is hard to square with Bronner's earlier report praising Netanyahu's supposed flexibility. Now it sounds like the Times isn't so sure that it's a sign of much of anything. But to help clarify things, the paper granted anonymity to an Israeli official in order to get the truth:
"On the one hand, the Palestinians are moving toward Hamas while on the other, the prime minister is showing a real willingness to make far-reaching territorial compromise," a top Netanyahu aide said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
What would be the condition for this? The official needed anonymity in order to more effusively praise his or her boss?
About Peter Hart
[...] Netanyahu, Ethan Bronner, Helene Cooper Posted in Israel/Palestine, New York Times | Permalink | Trackback | [...]
I'm so god damned sick of this Israeli / Palestine nonsense that I simply don't give one infinitesimal iota about either side anymore. These inflexible zealots will never learn to live together, so why should anyone give a damn what happens over there? As far as I'm concerned, they can blow each other to kingdom come and be done with it. I simply don't care any more. To hell with both of them.
Thank you, Bob.
Tell me Bob, do you think that's why the Israeli gov continues to use the "smoke and mirrors" double speak? So that their friends can claim Israel is making "extensive movement", and "great offers" which are "always turned down by the Palestinians" -making them (Israel) LOOK GOOD, even though they have no willingness to negotiate honesty, and continue to build on invaded , illegaly occupied land….
Confusing everyone over here. Allowing thier paid mouthpiece American media free reign to propagandise in their favor.
If you have ever been over there, as I have, and toured the miserable conditions the Palestinians are FORCED to exist under by the Israeli rules, you would know how the hollow Israeli government words conflict with reality.
I am wondering how Israel would respond to Palestinian demands for a military presence on the Mediterranean, control of Jerusalem and of settlements within Israel made by returning Palestinian refugees. Oh yes, and Likud can never participate in any Israeli government.
I'm with Bob. Nuke Jerusalem… BUT NOT ON THE SABBATH!! We can do this respectfully, and wait until Sunday.
^..^
"I'm so fed up with these people, embroiled in a conflict I can't be bothered to understand, that I don't care about their very lives."
Fuck you. What the hell is wrong with you? Why aren't you out torturing house pets?
It's a good thing that people like "Save the Oocytes," "John Brown" and "Bob" aren't running the world, as their apparent ignorance and hate mongering for others only helps to contribute to a more hateful world, after all, your condemning people for "simply being born in the wrong country, and, your dam lucky that you didn't happen to be born there as well!" It's too bad that ignorance lives in so many people, because it's that ignorance that will only breed more hate! Are you that hardened? Really?
Try having some empathy and compassion for "those people," "PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO CHOICE, BUT TO BE THERE," what about all the innocent people, children, and teens, their all people who are just like you and I, (well at least me,) people who's kids play just like ours do, people who simply want to live a normal (non death threatening) life, and to just be left alone.
Your blaming the wrong people here "MR. Pet Torturer," and John Brown" and if you want to "hate and blame someone" for what the "West" (starting right in the US) and the "Israel government is causing", then try hating the very governments that keep these people suppressed and right where they are, in poverty and need! Start with your very own US government, (assuming your from the US that is) a government who's old officials carry much predigest themselves, who encourages you to hate people that are different then themselves, that's why there's sooooo much propaganda for the "suckers to watch" and suck up on TV, and it obviously works, for some people!!!
In order to move forward, to a more peaceful existence, people like "Save the Ooctes, John Brown, and Bob," should think about "stopping the hate and predigest they carry" against people you don't even know! Most of those people you care nothing about, are just like us and only want peace and security. What do you think they think about people like you in the West, who hate them for something they haven't done or even caused? What's that old saying? Walk a mile in their shoes, although you have to have an opened, and not a one-sided mind to do that!!!
Start with a little education, and you will certainly find the truth, research what's really happening between Israel and Palestine (it won't take long) and see who's actually causing what, and whom your condemning, look up some "facts" before you spew hate for people who's conflict you apparently no nothing about, or that you don't understand, because if you did understand the truth, any "normal" person would have to have some compassion for what's been happening to the innocent people of Palestine, and well, the rest of the Middle East too, (if you have any compassion in you, that is?)
Bob:
The obvious frustration you express tells me that you have been persuaded by the incessant pro-Israel propaganda that gushes forth from our media – including such "liberal" sources as NPR and the NYT. This is a shame, since it allows you to forget that Palestinians have been subjected to 44 years of military occupation, or, in the case of Gaza, occupation followed by siege.
For Palestinians, the issues are not nonsense, and resisting oppression does not make you a zealot. As much as I sympathize with Israelis who are afraid of of rocket and bomb attacks, they at least have a simple solution: stop the aggression and their fears will go away. Palestine has no such recourse.
Why will no honest opine be stated- The Israel government is a captive of real estate development and greed- The settlements that are not part of the contiguous lands must realize that they may become part of Arab lands and then may lose their homes – this is exactly how Arabs were evicted -
Bob is right, i would hope that both sides kill each other off because i have no use for any of them, if they don't finish each other off then a nice nuke in the middle of there crappy desert homeland should do the trick.
"hate mongering for others only helps to contribute to a more hateful world," Sorry Leslie, but these two groups of people took out the patent on hate a very long time ago, which is why this contentiousness has been so everlasting. It's also still further proof of how religion makes people so universally stupid and shortsighted. I don't hate these people. I feel sorry for them because they're so self-righteous, intractable, adamantine, and totally insane. Their 15 minutes has expired, and I want nothing more to do with them.
Leslie Henderson, you obviously can't read. I was condemning Bob's psychopathic apathy. Jesus Christ.
Leslie, I obviously read the ones you cited differently, I'm not sure they were really serious. I do not think what they said showed any hate or derision or no compassion. It seemed more like a kind of resignation and frustration of the whole mess. I don't think they wanted anything but a happy solution for all parties. And Save the Oocytes was actually making a good point though sarcastic. It just seems like an intractable issues.
A position from a former EDF soldier in 2001 holds this view:
http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0227-06.htm
And here is another Israeli position of take it or leave it negotiations, so the Palestinians left it, cuz' it was a bad deal for them.
http://www.icahd.org/?page_id=79
Israel wants peace with her neighbors.History has proven she was attacked again and again and again.In co ordinated wars .I have always wondered (and why is so little said by the way) as to what would of been the result if they had lost any of those wars.What would of been the freedoms and compassion and openness to negotiation for a continued jewish presence in their ancient homelands.Let us all agree one shudders to imagine that reality.
BB was about as blunt as diplomacy would allow to our churlish man boy president.To quote my good friend Nick from Polermo……..Faw-get-a-bout-it!
Absent some kind of "minor miracle", it is our conclusion that there will not be a sovereign (and certainly not a contiguous) Palestine anytime soon (if ever)…although the U.N. General Assembly will most likely recognize one in some form or another (just like it did in 1947 via U.N. Resolution 181, the latter with 33 votes including that of the U.S.A.). That resolution "split" British Palestine more or less into two equal contiguous "halves" for Palestine and Israel…even though 2/3 of the population was not Jewish. A 21st Century sovereign state of Palestine would mean that there would eventually be a Palestinian army (however ill equipped) next door to Israel. That's a given of "sovereignty". Neither Israel nor the United States (nor Saudi Arabia for that matter) will ever permit that, as it would upset the long-term status quo. Further, it is our conclusion that the Muslim world (Arab and Persian) couldn't care less what happens to the Palestinians (or the descendants of Palestinian refugees living outside of Israel, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank of the Jordan River). Finally, it is our conclusion that both the Jewish world and the Muslim world wish that the "Palestinian problem" would simply go away (along with the Palestinians). In other words, the Palestinians are mere pawns used for propaganda purposes by just about everybody. This includes the internal propaganda war between the republican and democrat parties in the United States. Said another way, Saudi Arabia knows that the United States will never "give up" Israel. The Saudis have learned to live with that. The last thing the Saudis want is military turmoil caused by a sovereign Palestine…turmoil that would upset what is most important to them, i.e., the oil business (likewise the United States). While it is normal thinking for the average American to have compassion for the economic and human plight of Palestinian families…it is extremely doubtful that there is any such "compassion" in U.S. foreign policy (or in the foreign policy of Saudi Arabia) toward the Palestinians. And if anybody thinks that Israeli "foreign policy" toward the Palestinians is in any way "compassionate", they are utterly naive.
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I think your pessimism is well founded.But i think you are wrong.If the Arab countries decided to give up a bit of their ownership of 85% of Palestinian homelands,and Israel gave ground…..Israel would need a viable peace treaty.Along with a proven time period of peace.An acknowledgement of her right to survive,and exist.She would need Palestinian authorities to disengage from terrorist elements,and move on the road to peace.This would take a retooling of her society and education system away from hatred.If this were started 25 years ago I believe the Israeli part in this equation would be far down the road.
Of course would the arab countries be willing to ceed land?I don't know.They have never addressed it.But I am sure if this direction were taken they(the Palestinians) could have a country every bit as good as the oil'less spit of dessert that was "given" to Israel.
Never is a long time.I think eventually it will be done. Arafat is dead.I wish his beliefs died with him.I think Ghandi in Palestine would of been a great success.Imagine not a warlike army on Israels border.But a friend.
Well bb offered a lot in his speech.The first thing he wanted in return is a few words .WE ACCEPT THE JEWISH STATE.Palestinian authorities say it is a declaration of war.And so it goes.