You had to assume that there would be folks in the media who wouldn’t like the recent CBS/New York Times poll that found strong public support for public workers. Sixty percent of those polled oppose stripping public workers of collective bargaining rights; 56 percent opposed cutting pay or benefits of those workers in the name of deficit reduction.
Fox‘s Bill O’Reilly has a solution to this problem: Union households shouldn’t be polled. As he explained last night (3/1/11)
And the New York Times headline today reads “Majority in Poll Back Employees in Public Sector.” But the poll is misleading because 20 percent of the responds say they are from union households. If you subtract them, those who favor cutting benefits win the poll. Wow, New York Times.
In case it wasn’t clear, by “subtract them” he means exactly that–they shouldn’t count in polls of the American public:
O’REILLY: You have a situation where you have 20 percent of the people polled being in the union families and you’re telling me you can’t throw that out? That that’s a legitimate —
COLMES: You’re saying — yes, I’m saying that you are conflating numbers, 8 percent of people in the polls say are union members, 20 percent say they are in union families.
O’REILLY: Yes, families.
COLMES: You automatically–but you don’t automatically take that 20 percent and move into it the other column.
O’REILLY: I’m not moving it anywhere. I’m just taking it out of the mix.
Following this “logic,” the elderly shouldn’t be polled on Social Security, blacks shouldn’t be polled on civil rights legislation and Democrats shouldn’t be polled on Barack Obama’s job performance.
hilarious
It’s just another example of dehumanizing the opposition. You see… Because they are pro-union, they don’t really count as Americans.
since billo is a union member himself, he’s actually being self-effacing, asking “why should my opinion count?”
which sums up my feelings as well “why should falafelman’s opinions count?”
It’s an example of how statistics can be manipulated to obtain a desired result. In this case, by excluding union members from the poll, O’Reilly wants to make the claim that the protesting workers do not have wide public support. I think what O’Reilly is trying to get at is that the inclusion of union members in the poll biases the poll and skews the results. That’s nonsense of course because the statistic being polled is the public, and union members belong to that statistic. This FAIR rightly points out. However, there is another statistic, the one that O’Reilly hints at but cannot artculate clearly: what fraction of the non-unionized public does NOT support the protesting unionized public workers? My fear is that the number is high, which unfortunately if true demonstrates (1) how effective the mainstream media disinformation campaign is, (2) that most workers buy into this anti-union crap against their own interest, and (3) there is very little class consciouness in the US, which is a deplorable situation because the US has such a glorius labor history. As for me, I struggle to be optimistic in reactionary times.
The opposition to wage and benefits cuts surprised me, given the propaganda tsunami for them in the corpress, and I think it underscores the wrongheadedness of union leaders’ concessions on those matters.
I assume the theory is that the offer counters the stereotype of selfish public employees, unwilling to do their part in hard times. But that perception doesn’t appear to be widely held by the public, does it?
Even if it were, you don’t give up hard-won gains based on such a premise, do you? If “sacrifices” are necessary, let them begin at the top, and we’ll pitch in if it comes to that.
But they aren’t necessary, and it shouldn’t come to that, and the strategy should be to make clear who’s responsible for these artificially created “deficits”, and thus who should be held responsible for their elimination, don’t you think?
Where’s Spock when you need him?
John, I see what you’re saying, but look at it this way:
Even if you exclude the twenty percent from union families, on the collective bargaining question, you still have a majority against taking away those rights, don’t you? I think the result in one poll was 61 to 33, so we’re talking 41 to 33 opposed.
And if you take them out of the wages and benefits question, it’s still close: 36 to something in the lower forties or perhaps less.
That’s assuming everyone in that twenty percent is pro-union. As Colmes seemed to be trying to point out, that might not be the case, depending on how you define a member of a union family. It’s one thing if you’re a union member or dependent on the income from one or more in your family, and possibly another if the definition is more expansive, including those not in the immediate household, such as nieces, nephews, aunts, uncles, etc.
So, as I said in my previous comment, I was surprised by the level of support shown, especially on wages and benefits. O’Reilly’s exclusionary exercise really does nothing to diminish that.
Because Republicans might have a stake in the result of a pole, they should also be excluded. ;)
I am a new grad, um, stale grad registered nurse from SJSU. Just to point out my bias, i have only just gotten a (sub par) job after 1.5 years of severe underemployment. This has in part been due to obsticals unions have created for hiring nurses. It costs a hospital (ball park) $30,000 to hire a new grad so why not hire experienced people who will retire before baby boomers will put a HUGE stress on our health care system? This will leave us with few experienced nurses when we most need them. Because of unions.
Anyway, I still think it goes againts everything our country stands for to ban collective bargaining. Even if unions have permanently reduced my marketability. Does that mean that you couldn’t strike? will you goto jail if you skip work? Even as a nurse I am only criminally negligent if I show up to work and then leave w/ out permission
Oops that was more rant than i meant. Here is why i started writing:
I have spent some time in nursing homes/CCRCs and have noticed that in liberal california most seniors watch fox. Lets say 60%. some facilities have fox running all day in the public tv area. Because older people represent a disproportionate (and often easily manipulated by faulty logic) portion of voting citizens I wonder if we should be concerned about what our grandparents watch. Is this the audience fox targets most? Why do they like fox more than other sources? Are fox’s ratings as fragile as prohibition and gay rights? I mean, will they fall when the “pig gets through the snake? Similar to the spirit of this article, what does our society look like if you ignore this portion of the population?
I’ve been thinking about his for awhile and would appreciate comments :)
You’ve got to account for the 40+% of union members who vote for Republicans against their own interests many of which are pro-life or racist or nativist or whatever other psychological infirmities lead to supporting generic Republicans. I have worked in unionized jobs where there were constant political arguments between those who could not understand on which side their bread was actually buttered but who came running to the shop steward (me) for protection time and time again yet voted Conservative.
So even if you removed the 20% of union households from the calculation it would not go from 61 to 33 but maybe even 51 to 23 (who knows?) Actually all the quote shows is how incredibly ignorant O’Reilly is, something no sentient being should have had any doubt about anyway. You know… the polls come in, the polls go out, never a miscommunication. The main proof we have that God exists is that He/She/They created O’Reilly for our entertainment.
HA!! why, since unions are so awful and all, wouldn’t Bill’o-shit for brains figure that the actual MEMBERS of unions want to throw off their awful yoke of bondage? God What an idiot. But yes, explains Rasmussen, huh…
Scott walker is proposing charging public employees more for their health insurance and pension benefits. Bad thing?Absolutely not. His bill would limit collective bargaining by public workers only to wages. Voters would have to approve raises higher that exceeded the increase in inflation based on CPI.THey also would have to pay 5.8 % of their salaries pension cost. They now pay nothing.12% of their healthcare up from 6. Obviously he believes collective bargaining hurts negotiations dealing with rising healthcare and pension costs. Ultimately the bottom line above and beyond the political football of collective bargaining is a truth unions must accept. The private sector will no longer foot the bill for anything dealing with lucrative pension and health costs.The day is past
A nice, nuanced report, Carter. I think the oldies are “watching” Fox because the administrators put it on. The question may as well be, “Why are they watching television?” The last thing in the world I’d want to do is watch the tube in my senior years–my God, it’s death to the mind, and Fox is so comically bad, so dreadful, it’s seems like a deliberate torture system set up in a lot of these retirement hospitals (that is what they are). There’s an assumption by people who run institutions like these that older folks are “conservative”–certainly, there’s the assumption that evertbody wants to watch TV to get their information, and the default in these places (and in bars, for that matter) is FOX. A real bummer if you’re having a drink and know how to think, or if you’re old and are wheeled into a “rec room” to get your daily dosage of right-wing propaganda. At least in the bar the sound is down, and one can get increasingly strident and nasty with one’s comments (or at least private thoughts, depending upon the venue) as the liquor intake increases.
And you know what? Look around–we already see what happens when “society” ignores large groups of the population. That would be the vast majority of citizens, who when polled routinely demand higher taxes for the rich and corporations, an end to our foriegn adventures, and much higher spending on public works. And respect for the collective bargaining rights of workers. for that matter. The gulf between what the vast majority of citizens want and a tiny, elite want (that would include muti-millionaire Citizen O’Reilly) has never been wider.
Well Tim you are right that most people(2 to 1) do not want an end to collective bargaining. But when asked “if collective bargaining were hurting deficit reduction the same (2 to one) polled to end it.So it seems to be how you frame the question.
Polls do indicate people want spending on public works. But not if their taxes go up.Of course if you ask the question “hey how would you like public works paid for…. unions fully funded…… healthcare paid for….. And your taxes wont go up a dime. You know why?Because we are gonna tax some other guy. Some rich guy. Some corporation.In fact…. they are going to pay for everything, and a bag of chips yippee. Now you wont see that on Fox. Maybe cNBC. Hell of course everyone would poll for that.Me too!
I visit nursing homes.My mother was a director.Seldom have I seen Fox as the prime news source. How do I know ?Because I usually grit my teeth at the lib news shows they have on while I am there. And that includes Catholic nursing homes. The lib shows are less confrontational I guess. Are most older,wiser,people conservatives?Absofriggin lutely.Obama wishes these people would die.He wants his- minds of mush- no nothings who have no experience with charlatans(18-25 yr olds) to be in his voting block. Don’t knock our older folks. You see they have lived and fought stupidity and evil in their lives. Most know a fraud selling snake oil at a glance(Obama). Most are still sharp upstairs- if not in body. Beck yelled at all those millionaires living in Florida playing golf every day and going to shows.He said GO BACK TO WORK! This dumb as wood generation just leaving college have not a clue how to run this country.I loved it. What a great idea.
I think Tim most people want fairness. They may not understand “fairness” but they want it.A union guy works his ass off his whole life to put his daughter through med school. She works her ass off to become a Doctor, and works harder once she works as one. She makes a good coin.BUT…. she has a 300 thousand dollar loan,a massive expense to set up her practice and of course living costs. Now ask her union Father should her taxes go up from 52% to lets say 80% to help pay for dads union pension and healthcare, and that of his buddies?Id bet Dad would say “daddy does not want or need you hard earned money baby”.He would see that as unfair to his daughter.
Obama said union people are our friends and neighbors. Well Tim so are those who have done the things in life that allows them to earn more than some other people.Thats why class warfare is a sham.A liberal sham.
@ Carter M and TimN
Here’s an interesting article on how conservative 30 somethings can’t talk politics with their conservative parents because of all the misinformation their folks are getting from Faux.
“Over the past couple of years, I’ve been keeping track of a trend among friends around my age (late thirties to mid-forties). Eight of us (so far) share something in common besides our conservatism: a deep frustration over how our parents have become impossible to take on the subject of politics. Without fail, it turns out that our folks have all been sitting at home watching Fox News Channel all day â┚¬“ especially Glenn Beck’s program.”
http://www.frumforum.com/fox-geezer-syndrome
shock! pension plans aren’t bankrupting states
….there’s simply no evidence that state pensions are the current burden to public finances that their critics claim.
Pension contributions from state and local employers aren’t blowing up budgets. They amount to just 2.9 percent of state spending, on average, according to the National Association of State Retirement Administrators. The Center for Retirement Research at Boston College puts the figure a bit higher at 3.8 percent.
Though there’s no direct comparison, state and local pension contributions approximate the burden shouldered by private companies. The nonpartisan Employee Benefit Research Institute estimates that retirement funding for private employers amounts to about 3.5 percent of employee compensation.
Plus, less than 40% of public-sector workers are union members.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/03/06/109649/why-employee-pensions-arent-bankrupting.html
Nobody’s taxes are 52% and there is no talk about raising taxes [even the top marginal rate] to anywhere near 80%.
The Tax Foundation, a Washington-based tax-tracking think tank believes that Americans on average use 28 percent of their income to pay all taxes: federal [including social security], state, & local â┚¬” though it varies widely.
———————-
Then there’s this:
Taxpayers on the 95th to 99th steps on the income ladder in 2007 paid an effective INCOME tax rate of 17.52 percent, according to calculations by the Tax Foundation, a nonprofit research group that favors less taxation and lower rates.
PAYROLL taxes did not add a significant burden to the top 400, not changing the rounding of rates by even one decimal point.
————–
And then there’s this:
After the tax cuts became law, the next two years have become the best in living memory for many wealthy Americans to shield their income and fortunes.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40701302/ns/business/
That’s what class war really looks like. The rich won.
“O’REILLY: I’m not moving it anywhere. I’m just taking it out of the mix”.
I sincerely wish someone would take that worthless son of a bitch Billo out of the mix!
Helen I wasn’t quoting any proposed tax figures.I should of said 100% for all the good it would do.Though I was ruminating on the madness prior to Reagan.
AS far as FOX…..IT is easy to see their dominance and ascendancy as if it has always existed.Truth is for ages(it seemed)our press was a liberal shill. Just take a look at Obama’s election run. They refused to report anything bad on the man.They vetted him not at all . They attacked Bush daily on things that today they hardy mention(though those same issues are worse)Look at gas prices.Do you not remember the anger when they went up under Bush?Obama is actually against any effort to develop our massive natural gas and oil industry.He has even let our refining capacity decay. Useless as tits on a bull. Yet where is the press onslaught?
I was just re reading your figures. Im shaking my head so much Im afraid it may come off.Let me just ask you a question. How much is enough?How high would you tax our rich?How high would you raise the corp tax?
Bloomberg News:
Measured against the size of the economy, U.S. federal tax revenue is at its lowest level since 1950. Tax receipts in the 2011 fiscal year are expected to equal 14.4 percent of GDP, according to the White House. That compares with the 40-year average of 18 percent, according to the Congressional Budget Office. So if tax receipts return to their long-term average amid an economic recovery, about one-third of the annual budget deficit would disappear.
Likewise, individual federal income tax rates have declined sharply since the top marginal rate peaked at 94 percent in 1945. The marginal rate — which applies to income above a numerical threshold that has changed over time — was 91 percent as late as 1963 and 50 percent in 1986. For 2011, the top marginal rate is 35 percent on income over $373,650 for individuals and couples filing jointly.
Americans also aren’t overtaxed compared with residents of other advanced nations. In a 28-nation survey, only Chile and Mexico reported a lower total tax burden than the U.S., according to the Organization for Economic Development and Cooperation.
In 2009, taxes of all kinds claimed 24 percent of U.S. GDP, compared with 34.3 percent in the U.K., 37 percent in Germany and 48.2 percent in Denmark, the most heavily taxed OECD member.
â┚¬Ã…“By the standard of U.S. history, by the standard of other countries — by the standard of where else are we going to get the money — increased tax revenues have to be a part of the solution,â┚¬Ã‚ said Jeffrey Frankel, an economist at Harvard University who advises the Federal Reserve Banks of Boston and New York.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/print/2011-03-07/bonds-show-why-boehner-saying-we-re-broke-is-figure-of-speech.html
What a load of crap.50% today( or more)… pay nothing!That figure alone when put in its proper mathamatical sequence thrown all these figures into the trash.I am going to take your figures to my accountant and demand no more than 35 % be taken out this year.He will laugh me out of his office.This arguement is so specious.Let me spell this out.YOU WILL BE VOTED OUT.AMERICANS WANT LESS TAXATION ,AND LESS GOVERNMENT.How dare you show figures to tell us all how little we are taxed.This is where you and your lib friends don’t get it.I pray that your above figures and premise will be at the heart of Obamas re election run.As far as jeffrey Frankel….I know him and his work. Fellow Harvard alum.Stone cold over educated dolt.You just are not listening.Did you not hear America?
Michael – It appears you’ve been drinking funny kool aid supplied by Fox and the Tea Party. What is it about Helen’s documented information you refuse to accept? Obviously, you hate real facts and figures and love the crazy kind being bandied about by Glenn Beck and his ilk. Read on and you may grasp some of the problems of accepting the junk that appears in our media that passes for “news.”
The wealthy laugh all the way to their Swiss Banks and the rest of us try to survive.
More recently, Fox presented this information to the watching audience: Teachers are overpaid. My gosh, they make $50,000 a year (they don’t) and have another $40,000 in benefits, for which they only work until 2:30 and have summers off.
Almost in the same breath: $250,000? These poor people can hardly pay their mortgages. They have EXPENSES.
Anybody able to tell me how it is that a teacher living on $50,000 (which they aren’t actually paid) can do so enormously well when others on $250,000 can’t make ends meet?
Also, a couple of my well to do friends tell me that:
a) everyone has a million dollars
b) 50% of the people don’t pay taxes
I have to ask everyone out there, how can this be? Which 50% pay no taxes? If we “all” have a million dollars, how is it that 50% of us are able to avoid paying taxes?
A and B make about as much sense as saying that teachers are overpaid at $50,000 a year and people who make $250,000 can’t be expected to make ends meet.
Here’s something else that I need help understanding: “Get government out of my life; …smaller govt, etc.” Well, yes, except I sure get angry if the roads have potholes, or the police don’t come when someone bashes my car, or my house burns down because there’s no fire dept. And the best one of all: “…let’s go bomb Iraq because Doug Feith believes they have Weapons of Mass Destruction.” Right, Doug. And, of course, there was Paul Wolfiwitz who proclaimed that ‘…the money we get from Iraqi oil will PAY FOR THE WAR.’
I’m still waiting for that oil to come through. Aren’t you? Meanwhile, the price of gas just keeps on going up.
The list goes on and on. Aren’t people who don’t want government usually called “Anarchists?”
Has everyone in this country gone nuts?
Liz…Nobody is overpaid.I don’t care if each teacher makes a million.Good for them.As long as it does not come from me. Is Snooky overpaid?Hell no -good for her.Only in America right?I don’t begrudge anyone success.As long as it does not come from my pocket.Helens facts….. are crap!.Based on a false premise”based on the size of the economy”. And I can prove it is crap.I don’t even have to throw a million counter facts at you.If it were true that Americans are taxed too little …..Obama would be running on that basis. Yet You will never hear those words come from his mouth.He will say the RICH are taxed too little.It is always easy to say the other guy is not taxed enough.Obama wants to redistribute wealth and form a government nanny charity.A charity that cares.Yet has he been charitable in his life?Hell no. Never gave anything.It is so hypocritical as to be hysterically funny.
I cant answer why people who make 250k or 50k can or cant make expenses.i can tell you it is none of the governments- or our business.
Bush signed away the confiscation of any iraqi oil(duffas).He did it for the libs(double duffas). Investments in Iraq are quickly payng down the war dept sad but true. The loss of life will never be paid down.That is the true cost of all wars.
As far as smaller government.It is simple. Our governments size is exploding.It is not needed.It is redundant.A waste of recourses.A liberal reshuffling of money.Not money produced. Just reshuffled. The services you mentioned will be the ones our small recourses must be used for. All the more proving the TEA party argument to cut government. Lower taxes,and let this country rebound under the constitution.
You talk of conservative thought as people of that ilk.Well “that ilk”is going to hand Obama the biggest defeat you have ever seen.Not because he is black.Not because of anything but a simple fact. Liberalism has been tried, and found wanting.Why cant you accept that fact?
Mike, your income tax rate can’t be 35% because the 35% figure is the top MARGINAL rate, which only applies to net income above a certain point, somewhere around $373k.
Other parts of your income are taxed at 10%, 15% , 25%, 33%. Where those rates kick in depends on if you are married or single.
Helpful chart here:
http://www.invest-2win.com/Brackets.html
——-
PS
The average effective income tax rate among people who pay taxes is a bit over 9%.
I love the article on Public Pensions are not bankrupting states…that is the most uninformed ridiculous article & shows how devious people are to divert the TRUTH! I have been a retirement planner for 21 yrs and deal with gov’t retirement plans. It is not the contribution rates as touted in the article….but the pension obligations…the average person does not understand the Defined benefit formula used in Public Sector pensions…it is based on yrs of service times a % credit factoring times generally the average of the top 3 yrs of the last 5-10 yrs of salary ( there is where the complaint of loading salary in the last 3 yrs to seriously artificially inflating your LIFETIME BENEFIT- oh yes it is paid for life and joint survivor too…many state and governemnt employees with SS are making 100-130% of their income). Unfortunately all these benefit payout rates( % crediting factors) have been adjusted by unions giving their members larger payouts in retirement or letting them retire with 20-25 yrs of service and making 85% of their income for the rest of their life while working another job till SS comes! Believe me the unions know how to boost the formula for these payouts to be huge. Unfortunatley the idiot politicians agreeing to spend and obligate our hard earned tax dollars to gov’t pensions…didn’t consult the actuaries on future obligations…hince the burden that is bankrupting states is not the contribution rate as diverted by the uninformed above and in the referenced ‘supporting article” but the…”oops the bill has come due” and we have to pay the people their pensions… Get you heads out of sand…and quit kicking the can down the road and letting our kids and grandkids deal with the idiotic decisons of “paid -for” politicians. My opinion…American taxpayers should never have their hard earned tax monies being held hostage by “public unions!” That is insane. It is funny one of the biggest Liberal Presidents of all time FDR…who was by many considered a socialist….said…”There should be NO unions allowed in Governments.” Even he saw the writing on the wall….how these groups could withhold basic services( sanitation& water, police, edcuation, and fire….that WE pay for ….and cause our states and cities to be in CHAOS…Look what is happening in Wisconsin…need I say more! However that being said…I support unions in the private sectors…let the free market set the price of goods and services and let companies succeed or fail on their own merits….but the UNIONS have NO business in Government…ENOUGH!
Rene……..Stop it.Stop talking sense.Believe me it is not wanted on these blogs.You are um….a person who hates the “working man” and um….poor people …..and um…. Ill bet you like guns,and go to church and um….stuff!
Ps Great rant.DItto!
Helen figure in all the taxes you pay.Fed..state…..home….goods and services…..everything is taxed but my good looks.I figure if I took gov 35%….. corporate,land,and all the rest Im probably running around 60 plus %.
rene, it isn’t clear what you’re saying exactly. You spew a lot of figures and formulas and such, with no references cited to verify what you say. It is clear that you do not like public unions, of which only 40% of those in the public sector belong to unions. Where is anyone’s taxes being held hostage by public unions? If there were public services taken over by the private sector and their unions, would you still think the taxes paid to them to be the same as their holding the tax payers dollars hostage? Couldn’t they, too, go on strike and stop all services to the public? Are you also for that? Or do you just object to the notion of public unions going on strike? And how many strikes by public unions have there been in the last 50 years, not so many, I don’t think. The reason being that an agreement is reached by collective bargaining.
So if public services are taken over by the private sector, remember the private sector is there to make a profit, the public sector is there to provide a service, not to make a profit. The per cent spending by states is an average 2.9%. Not much of an expenditure. I did not realize there were any services being withheld from the public by the Wisconsin protests. Or are you just complaining about the city being in a state of “chaos” due to the protests of not just public workers but supporters as well. Kinda shifts the states and cities chaos beyond the public unions.
The public sector is not unlike the private sector; it is just called public due to government, is that what you do not like? The idea of government forcing things on you? When you get a job in the government, chances are you will make less than the private sector. And once the government pays their workers, it is no longer tax money, it is private citizen money. Just like in the private sector.
You get paid by the ones you are employed by which, in effect, is paid for by what consumers buy from the company which turns out is done by tax payers. Yes, Margaret, consumers are also taxpayers. And once those who are employed get paid by either the government or the company it is no longer money that belongs to the consumer or the taxpayer. Yet you seem to think that services provided by the public sector is somehow less than the service you get from the private sector. I hear no complaints of the fact that corporations determine what you buy, what is sold, how much you spend, determine how to handle your complaints(more and more through an arbitrator); there is a great deal of choice determined by corporations and what they want.
Your free market right now has raised the price of gas through the Wall street speculators, not through supply and demand; of course the event in Libya has some effect on the price going up somewhat, but speculation is also happening to increase the price at the pump.
I agree that closer to the time that retirement is to be collected, there is spiking going on, in order to increase the level of retirement benefits. But then, what to you is a fair retirement amount for many years of a person’s life? Should a public sector worker make less than in the private sector? Why shouldn’t there be reasonable equity for both workers? There is less and less pensions in the private sector being realized today, it has been replaced by 401k plans, which shifts more of the pension burden to the employee.And what is a pension anyway, but a deferred payment now for a future payment then, when you get old. Public workers pay 100% for their pensions in many cases, which translates into a decrease in salary now for the deferred payment.
However the formula for figuring retirement benefits is done, the result is a reasonable figure to give someone enough to live on that is above the poverty level. Yes, unions have negotiated this, but instead of harping about the public worker getting more,why not figure out why the private sector is getting screwed and try to raise their level of retirement. And are you agreeing to get less for your retirement, don’t you want to get as much as you reasonably can? Why do you begrudge someone else doing just that?
Don’t forget, unions represent simply a group of regular people who get to speak on their own behalf for their middle class benefits with their employer, public or private sector. Most people who work for unions work under an agreed contract that stipulates their labor is worthy to be negotiated, rather than to just be exploited by the employer with all the rules being made only for the company. The benefits gotten by unions are enjoyed by union and non-union workers alike. The wages in this country have been raised by unions. What I would like to see as a negotiation is for the employer to agree to an increase in the emplyee’s wages, but make it so that they cannot raise their prices on the products that they make, instead get the wage increase from the profits made by the employer.
It is clear that if the resident troll agrees with you and that just means you are both just full of s**t.
Well, Mike if you are, then you must live in a high tax state and make a ton of money and/or own a lot of property and/or are self-employed and pay all of your social security because, repeating myself here, “The Tax Foundation, a Washington-based tax-tracking conservative think tank believes that Americans on average use 28 percent of their income to pay ALL taxes: federal [including social security], state, & local, property, sales, gasoline ,etc â┚¬” though it varies widely.
A 2009 report answers the question: “What percentage of their income are the residents of individual states paying in state and local taxes?”
According to the report, residents pay the highest percent of their income in New Jersey, (12.2 percent), New York (12.1 percent), Connecticut (12 percent), Wisconsin (11 percent), Rhode Island (10.7 percent) and California (10.6 percent).
The lowest tax burdens are in Alaska (6.3 percent), Nevada (7.5 percent), South Dakota (7.6 percent), Tennessee (7.6 percent) and Wyoming (7.8 percent).
On average, Americans pay state and local taxes equal to 9.8 percent of their income
http://www.caltax.org/homepage/022811_california_tax_burden.html
PS
Just wanted to add that my comment posted on March 7th, 2011 at 10:33 am sites numbers that take into account of the fact that 47% of taxpayers paid no INCOME tax. [not “50% pay no taxes”]
@ Elizabeth
When your friends tell me that “50% of the people don’t pay taxes,” they’re wrong. Approx 47% of Americans paid no INCOME taxes in the most recent year we have figures for.
There are reasons for that: The home morgage deduction, the child tax credit and the earned income credit. Those were tax breaks designed to encourage people to get married, buy a house and have kids. A head of household with two kids and a mortgage payment can make almost $50k a year and have no federal income tax liabilities
Another large group who pays no INCOME taxes are senior living on little beyond social security.
The other reason the number has gone up in recent years: rising underemployment and unemployment caused by bushonomics crashing left more people under the taxable threshold.
Well Raymond…by the humorous things said in your post…it is no wonder you do not understand the basic multiplication and facts I stated in my post..as far as pensions…most states have websites where the person can locate their gov’t employer in the state and put their current salary in and estimate their pension…this will not include any COLA adjustments…
Ray’s comment: “If there were public services taken over by the private sector and their unions, would you still think the taxes paid to them to be the same as their holding the tax payers dollars hostage?” Ray…their is a thing call free market and competition…there is none in gov’t/union controlled services. If unions hold public companies hostages…they should be able to ger rid of them and hire other workers that want the jobs(oops…in most cases the Gov’t/state prevent that to happen…it all comes back to the gov’t ray…lol). Just for your knowledge the Government never produces goods…it consumes. Name one major Government organiztion that has taken over services that has not failed…maybe the post office, oh the railroads…oh SS& medicare and medicare is so successful and cost effective…they should take over a fifth of or economy-Helathcare!” Education that is a joke as this Country continues to decline in world standings…yet our $ increase in spending for education has more than tripled with less results…wow that is effective…LOL However in the private sector when you have competition you get innovation and creation of superior products and services AND ULTIMATELY BETTER PRICE. Kinda of like innovations like this mode of communication- INTERNET…and no Ray…AL gore did not invent the internet…LOL
Ray’s comment:
“So if public services are taken over by the private sector, remember the private sector is there to make a profit, the public sector is there to provide a service, not to make a profit. The per cent spending by states is an average 2.9%. Not much of an expenditure. I did not realize there were any services being withheld from the public by the Wisconsin protests. Or are you just complaining about the city being in a state of “chaos” due to the protests of not just public workers but supporters as well. Kinda shifts the states and cities chaos beyond the public unions.
– Wow RAY…you need to get a “figure adjustment” or hold the rhetoric and get some factual knowledge… the 2 largest budget line items in ALL states budgets is EDUCATION and Medicare/Medicaid”….I do believe these are public services…last time I checked….DO not get me started on public unions’ demise of our “education system” in the US and Illegal immigration costs for states….even Liberal made documentaries state the same. Excuse me…Wisconsin Teachers shut down school for our children then encouraged them to attend the “embarassement of public disatisfaction” (rallies)…how about peacful rallies…I don’t remember the tea party rallies where folks were screammin in peoples faces….having to have police drag them out of public buildings….yet they were always labeled as radical and violent. Funny how they are not talking about this on TV Land. As far as support…the average American knows where these people are being shipped in from and who is doing it…big LABOR unions…boy that was a strain to figure out…lol
Ray’s Comment: “Yet you seem to think that services provided by the public sector is somehow less than the service you get from the private sector. I hear no complaints of the fact that corporations determine what you buy, what is sold, how much you spend, determine how to handle your complaints(more and more through an arbitrator); there is a great deal of choice determined by corporations and what they want.”
Need I say more than the Post office, railroads, Medicare, SS…. I think the private sector through competition could provide more cost effective and better quality solutions…they certainly cannot do worse. Lack of choice in the Private sector…in majority of the cases comes from “GOVERNMENT”(federal and/or state) intervention in that private sector market that drives competition out of the market leaving only the CONGLOMERATES to rule thus reducing our choice…Limited choice is 99% the result of Government intervention(economics 101)-try taking a basic course in economics…LOL
Ray’s comment: “Your free market right now has raised the price of gas through the Wall street speculators, not through supply and demand; of course the event in Libya has some effect on the price going up somewhat, but speculation is also happening to increase the price at the pump.” Now Ray this is a novice comment by someone who watches too much CNBC. TRY the biggest contributor of our gas prices…lack of drilling in the US…case in point…when one of my least favorite presidents…Bush announced they were going to increase drilling by opening up areas…Oil prices fell to their lowest prices on record in the last decade…wow what a novel concept…instead Ray, try blaming the “GREEN” administration who by THEIR own ommission would like to see the Prices of “non-green” energy sky-rocket…only way to change people’s behavior…bleed their pocketbooks dry. Ray get your head out of the sand(quit believing what TV tells you…lol) and think beyond 1+1=2. There is more at play in “speculators” play book then what you are spewing(basic tv expoitation 101- to get ratings)…I should know…financial analysis is what I do…and those “simple-minded” arguments are getting laughably old and just down right stupid to us in the “Real financial” world…not TV PUNDIT LAND. You want your gas prices to go down…then DRILL in the US and the result would be energy independence for one of the largest consumers of Oil in the world…will be taken off OPEC’S(the crazy dictators’ association… Algeria, Angola, Ecuador, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Libya, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, and Venezuela) distrubition list and you will see the funding for terrorists drastically drop and maybe the US will stop needing to get involved in so many wars. Because when it is all said and done…it is about “US INTERESTS”(ie oil) why we get involved….the previous list of OPEC members says it all!
Ray’s Comment- “I agree that closer to the time that retirement is to be collected, there is spiking going on, in order to increase the level of retirement benefits. But then, what to you is a fair retirement amount for many years of a person’s life? Should a public sector worker make less than in the private sector? Why shouldn’t there be reasonable equity for both workers? There is less and less pensions in the private sector being realized today, it has been replaced by 401k plans, which shifts more of the pension burden to the employee.And what is a pension anyway, but a deferred payment now for a future payment then, when you get old. Public workers pay 100% for their pensions in many cases, which translates into a decrease in salary now for the deferred payment.” Ray this is the sadest comment of all-sounds like you need to be in a socialist’s etopia…ever think of moving to France, spain, greece(whoops maybe not…they are broke due to the “entitlements” they are handcuffed by unions to pay…LOL). A fair retirement for someone’s yr’s of service should be measured by what he/she puts into it…not what he/she believes the gov’t owes them. Now to basic facts… 41 of of the 50 states average salaries are higher then the private sector(Sources: Bureau of Economic Analysis; USA TODAY analysis)…this is a fact. Ray here is the reality check…Public employees DO NOT pay 100% of their pensions…LOL…I found this comment the funniest and most absurd comment of your entire post…I am sure everyone reading…wrote you off after that…but I know you are a human being and deserved some feedback…not that it would even register…The average state employer contribution rate was roughly 10 percent of employee salary, as of 2009, while the average employee contribution rate was roughly 5 percent, according to Boston College’s database. In more than 30% of government entities…the employee pays less then 3%….yet the resulting payout on average is 70% of final salary for 30 yrs of service for the rest of an employee’s life… due to the pension formulas that have high % crediting rates/yr of service and stacking of salary in the final yrs. In the private sector the average Co. contribution is 3-4% and the average worker contribution is 6.5% resulting in DC Plan(like a 401k) with avg returns of 6-8% resulting after 30Yrs of contributions an average of 28-35% of final pay being supplemented by their 401K amoritized payouts… Now you can see why Pensions run “unfunded”- paying with borrowed dollars from the current workers…LOL…because there is no way(numbers do not lie) an employee contributing to their pension at 5% and a gov’t at 10% would give someone a pension for life of 70%+ of their final salary
Ray where in the world did you grow up to think that “PEOPLE” OWE YOU/public union workers…in a free society…you are rewarded by what you put into it… that is what made America the leader in the world economies…it has been the outsourcing of America’s industry which once made it great that has now become it’s downfall….why because we can no longer manufacturer many goods and services cost effectively( thanks to to the unions demands for higher “everything’)…we have driven our innovations beyond our borders. What do I think is fair for retirement…what you are willing to save to put into it(sacrafices that all of us in the private sector have to make in order to even see a retirement). I’ll be dam if I want to fund more public pensions through higher taxes & higer costs for public provided services…therefore sacraficing the abilitiy to provide my own retirement…I personally just want to be rewarded for what efforts I put into my financial resources and I expect nothing less from my fellow “public worker.” If UNIONS could stop acting like “entitled spoiled brats and loan shark thugs” and remember “health care and retirment” IS NOT A RIGHT given to them…it is EARNED…therefore you have to contribute in order to earn…something the majority of AMERICANS understand. If God thought it was “our right” to have these things…I would have been born with clothes and a bank account stocked with monies to live. The riduculousness that these benefits are something we are entitled to and have as a “right” and others(taxpayors) need to fund these…is absurd and the result of a bunch of selfish people who forgot how their grand parents and great grand parents had to “work for what they had in life” and “save for what they wanted or needed!” I rather be poor and know that everthing I have- I earned then to expect payments from others to better my position in society….nobody owes me nor do we owe them…you want a pension…put monies into it…you want healthcare…pay for it. The average teacher salary in Wisconsin is over 90K a yr….the average bus driver in Wisconsin earns 60k to a 100K(on the highest end- this is PUBLIC RECORD) hell I would rather pay our military(they are truly underpaid) who put their lives on the line 60K+ a yr to protect our rights to have these debates-at least they would deserve such high payment…the bus driver salaries should inspire all those kids not to go to college…take a GED and or highschool diploma and go be a bus driver in WI… you will make more money( the average salary of a 4 yr Bachelor degree is 45K). Ray…you don’t think these unions have run amuk in their demands from taxpayers??? The black and white numbers speak for themselves…no more rhetoric just numerical FACTS! By the way Ray…I think pictures speak louder then words…the chaos created by the union and big union supporters exemplified by WI rallies do not show “regular folks” as you stated above…more like “a spoiled child who did not get their way.” Funny too…I have union friends that said they had gone overboard!
Ray’s Comment-“The benefits gotten by unions are enjoyed by union and non-union workers alike. The wages in this country have been raised by unions. What I would like to see as a negotiation is for the employer to agree to an increase in the emplyee’s wages, but make it so that they cannot raise their prices on the products that they make, instead get the wage increase from the profits made by the employer.” Really RAy, then why do private sector wages reflect the same numbers as Public sector…Let’s hope we don’t see your socialist Eutopia…then every major company in US will leave our country for more business friendly environment…oops then there would not be any jobs…no tax dollars to pay for the gov’t and its services and then where would we be…”stone ages”….or in soup lines waiting for handout’s…
Americans are the ones tired of this s***t RAY…free-loading days are over…we can’t afford it anymore.
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