Comments on: And Now, From the 'Hard Left': Ronald Reagan http://www.fair.org/blog/2009/05/02/and-now-from-the-hard-left-ronald-reagan/ The national media watch group Sun, 21 Mar 2010 04:19:07 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.2 hourly 1 By: Doug Latimer http://www.fair.org/blog/2009/05/02/and-now-from-the-hard-left-ronald-reagan/comment-page-1/#comment-3829 Doug Latimer Mon, 04 May 2009 15:26:36 +0000 http://www.fair.org/blog/?p=8543#comment-3829 I somehow left out those who approved "enhanced interrogation techniques". I imagine that's self-evident, but I think it's important to list them specifically. I somehow left out those who approved "enhanced interrogation techniques". I imagine that's self-evident, but I think it's important to list them specifically.

]]> By: Doug Latimer http://www.fair.org/blog/2009/05/02/and-now-from-the-hard-left-ronald-reagan/comment-page-1/#comment-3823 Doug Latimer Mon, 04 May 2009 00:51:11 +0000 http://www.fair.org/blog/?p=8543#comment-3823 So our gummint's moved from signing treaties saying we didn't torture ... even though we did (and have for the whole of our history) ... to the Shrubberites saying we don't torture because waterboarding et al *isn't* torture. That's really not much of a backslide, is it? We're still lying about our actions, and abusing and killing folks in the process. Has it stopped under Obama? Maybe we should take his word for it ... after all, he hasn't lied to us so far, has he? He's just been a little imprecise in stating his intentions ... like ending the occupation of Iraq, for instance. And I'm a little confused about this whole "Hard Left" thing. I believe that a system based on profit creates a few winners and a whole lot of losers, that we're all in this shit together, and that treating others as you want to be treated should be our guiding principle (as much as I might fall short of following it). Am I "Hard Left", far left, etc.? If so, I'm happy to be labeled as such. Finally, as regards torture ... It's an abomination that has no place in a civilized world. Of course, we don't live in a civilized world, do we? So, left with no other viable option, would I have tortured Hitler to prevent the Holocaust? Would I have tortured Truman to prevent Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Would I have tortured JFK and LBJ to prevent the slaughter in Vietnam? Stalin? Mao? Tojo? Pinochet? And on and on and on? Yes, I think I would ... if I could bring myself to. And I'd despise the necessity of having to do so. I won't argue with anyone who believes torture is wrong under all circumstances. I think it should be outlawed among nations. What I stated above, and the motivation for it, have nothing to do with torture as it's been practiced for millenia. But many folks think it does ... they buy the "ticking time bomb" and "torture works" horseshit based on this "greater good" argument. At least that's how they justify it to themselves ... those who have any moral qualms about it. I don't think it does any good to state an unequivocal opposition to torture without acknowledging that moral dilemma under the "best case" situations above. I think that strengthens the argument to ban torture in the real world ... because the scenario of "the greater good" doesn't exist at Guantanamo or Bagram or any "black site". The inquisitors there may be protecting something ... but it isn't our freedom, is it? I hope I'm making sense here. So our gummint's moved from signing treaties saying we didn't torture … even though we did (and have for the whole of our history) … to the Shrubberites saying we don't torture because waterboarding et al *isn't* torture.

That's really not much of a backslide, is it? We're still lying about our actions, and abusing and killing folks in the process.

Has it stopped under Obama? Maybe we should take his word for it … after all, he hasn't lied to us so far, has he? He's just been a little imprecise in stating his intentions … like ending the occupation of Iraq, for instance.

And I'm a little confused about this whole "Hard Left" thing. I believe that a system based on profit creates a few winners and a whole lot of losers, that we're all in this shit together, and that treating others as you want to be treated should be our guiding principle (as much as I might fall short of following it).

Am I "Hard Left", far left, etc.? If so, I'm happy to be labeled as such.

Finally, as regards torture …

It's an abomination that has no place in a civilized world.

Of course, we don't live in a civilized world, do we?

So, left with no other viable option, would I have tortured Hitler to prevent the Holocaust? Would I have tortured Truman to prevent Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Would I have tortured JFK and LBJ to prevent the slaughter in Vietnam? Stalin? Mao? Tojo? Pinochet? And on and on and on?

Yes, I think I would … if I could bring myself to. And I'd despise the necessity of having to do so.

I won't argue with anyone who believes torture is wrong under all circumstances. I think it should be outlawed among nations. What I stated above, and the motivation for it, have nothing to do with torture as it's been practiced for millenia.

But many folks think it does … they buy the "ticking time bomb" and "torture works" horseshit based on this "greater good" argument. At least that's how they justify it to themselves … those who have any moral qualms about it.

I don't think it does any good to state an unequivocal opposition to torture without acknowledging that moral dilemma under the "best case" situations above. I think that strengthens the argument to ban torture in the real world … because the scenario of "the greater good" doesn't exist at Guantanamo or Bagram or any "black site". The inquisitors there may be protecting something … but it isn't our freedom, is it?

I hope I'm making sense here.

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